Interview [Enumerating the features and reasons for the formation of the Islamic Revolution; the necessity for the elucidation of the Islamic Revolution by the thinkers]

Interviewer: Egyptian writer and journalist, Muhammad Hasanayn Haykal
Question: [How do you assess Islamic movement in comparison with the time of the Prophet?]
Answer: The current movement in Iran is an example of the movement in the beginning of the advent of Islam, which will leave a deep and long lasting effect in a short period of time.
Q: [Despite the frustration and disappointment of the people, what was the reason behind the development of such a new movement?]
A: This frustration was almost discernible in all the Islamic countries, because the propaganda of the West and the aliens had become so vigorous that all the Muslim nations had been overpowered by this propaganda; and in this regard there was no hope to rescue the people. Now, with the movement that has emerged, it is probable that other nations also join us to save Muslims from this dominance; not only is it probable, but it is almost sure that the Muslims will be rescued from this domination. And I here beseech the Almighty God to save Muslims and to realize and fulfill their wishes.
Q: [Do you predict that the Islamic movement of Iran will continue and will spill over to other countries?]
A: The continuation of this movement on the part of Iranian Muslims will be definite, but Iran needs the support of others from outside- publicity support. Great writers should discharge their duties in this regard and through their able writings convey the current problems to both the Iranians and other peoples in the world. Doing this will encourage the Iranians and boost their spirits to remain firm in continuing [their Islamic movement].
Q: [During the years 1950 and 1951 (in the climax of the Iranians' struggle against Britain) I was in Iran and wrote my first book about Iran. «1» What is the difference between the struggles in those years and the current fighting in your opinion? And why did imperialism defeat that movement in those years?]
A: I think that the current movement is more profound than that during the late Dr. Musaddiq's. That movement was merely a political one, but in the current movement the religious aspect has preeminence over other aspects. The people of Iran are all Muslims. Many strata of the people are ignorant of politics, but they are fond of religion. All the people raise the same slogans in all the villages- you had better go and see yourself- that are raised in the cities and have the same demands. From minor child- school children- to the dying old men, all pronounce the same thing unanimously. These slogans and demands have become national in a way that no one can question them. This movement has an Islamic-political meaning, but the previous movement was merely political. The current movement is profounder than the previous one and the hope for its victory is much more, and we hope that no one can ever silence the movement.
Q: [We also hope that the movement will achieve victory. I am really proud that you have granted me the opportunity for such a discussion, but we all wonder whether the movement will achieve its objectives. Many of us are concerned that the movement may fail to achieve its goals, because our enemies are much more experienced than before. It is not just about Shah; Iran is a great oil-exporting country; Iran is the gendarme of the region and the watchdog of the interests of the imperialists; and a party to a military pact. When I was in Iran, the agents of the political leadership were active and also the agents of the religious leadership. Now the entire leadership of the movement is Islamic. In those days the religious and political leaderships were separate (it means Ayatullah Kashani and Musaddiq); but now the leadership (politico-religious) is single and there is just one leader. But the enemies are also united and have the entire region under their dominance. Now that the movement has occurred in Iran the West is surprised. A few years ago, I met the Shah in Iran. Everybody thought that the situation had been stabilized. My question is: why did such an incident happen? How did it happen? And what has been the origin of such a great development in the movement?]
A: This movement stems from Islam. At the time of Ayatullah Kashani and Musaddiq, politics was the main issue. I wrote letters to Ayatullah Kashani and told him that he should also pay attention to the religious aspects. He either couldn't do it or did not want to. Instead of strengthening the religious aspects and instead of bringing the political aspects under the dominance of religious aspects, Ayatullah Kashani became a political figure himself. He became the Parliament speaker; that was a mistake. I told him that he should work for religion, and not to become involved in politics. But now the movement is religious in all its aspects, it is Islamic; and politics is inherent in it. Islam is political religion; politics is inherent in the movement. You had better go to Iran now to closely watch what is going on in Iran now and what was going on in those days. There are lots of problems; we are faced with the superpowers and they are all concerned about our movement. But they cannot do anything, unless they resort to force and dispatch military forces to Iran. We are weak and cannot militarily confront them; otherwise, even through the alliance of other governments, military coup, or martial government- and even by a military coup and annihilating the Shah- they cannot gain victory. The current movement is such a profound one that such problems are solvable, no attention is paid to military coup or martial government, and people ignore all of them. Today, the people are scrambling for Islam, but in those days they were calling for oil. There is a difference between the time when the people are fighting for their interests and when they are fighting in the way of God. That movement was a materialistic one and this movement is spiritual. Therefore, the current situation is almost the same as the situation at the beginning of the Islamic era, and we all hope that our movement will win.
It does not mean that we are not concerned. Of course there are matters of concern in such struggles and movements. Now all the political centers in the world have focused on Iran and intend to crush Iran's movement. It is not that we are not aware or are not concerned; in fact we feel that we are religiously duty-bound, a divine duty. This is the same logic of the early stages of the development of Islam. The very same logic according to which if we are killed we will go to heaven, if we kill, we will go to heaven and if we are defeated, we will go to heaven and if we defeat, we will go to heaven. Therefore, we are not afraid of being defeated; we are not afraid at all. Our movement is not merely a political one; we make progress on the basis of the logic of Islam; we are not afraid of being defeated. Prophet Muhammad (s) was also defeated in some of his battles against the infidels. We launch our war by relying on the sword of God and we are not frightened. The movement will continue.
Q: [How did it happen? The political observers of Iranian developments and those who analyze the situation in Iran cannot believe that such a great movement has happened in Iran. This movement is the first of its kind throughout history; it is particularly the first movement that is led and controlled from a remote distance. What is the origin of the magnificence of the movement?]
A: Iran's island of tranquility and stability has always been accompanied by suppression. Any kind of suppression is followed by an explosion. Total suppression is followed by an entire explosion. The people of Iran were under pressure from all sides; all expected an explosion and all hoped that the Shah would leave Iran. If you are aware and if you remember, during Rida Khan's era and after all those pressures, when the Allies attacked from three directions and invaded Iran, the life of the people was in danger, but when Rida Khan left Iran, everybody became happy. In fact pressure and suppression had caused great sufferings; therefore, the people were ready to endure other pains to get rid of that great suffering. These suppressions and public sufferings became even greater during the Shah's era. Various cases created great pains for the people. Those working in the State Organization for Information and Security (SAVAK) and other governmental agents treated the people in a manner that created a complex for them, a complex that affected the entire nation adversely. A mere lance was enough to blow up the complex and relieve the people. The clergy did it. I understand the language of the people and am acquainted with the social institutions. I speak with the people in their own language and talk on behalf of their inner being. I pinpoint all those 50- year-old weak points that I have observed and was aware of and was present in each of them. The entire nation was going to explode; all of them were waiting. The dictatorship prepared the ground for the materialization of the potential explosion and the clergy-led uprising caused the explosion.
Q: [It is said that the US does not intend to militarily interfere in Iranian affairs. If the Iranian army fails to stand against the people and if they see their interests in danger, don't you think that they will resort to military measures?]
A: They have learned lessons from previous attacks against Iran and are well aware of the fact that even if they achieve victory through military attacks, their victory will not last for a long time. In a country where all the people are opposed to an invader, the invader may gain victory, but its victory will not last for a long time. The entire nation in the country will crush and destroy them. They have some experts in these affairs and have investigated and discussed the situation in Iran and are aware of all these facts ... They will not resort to military measures in Iran, and if they do, they will be certainly defeated.
Q: [I am so sorry to take your time. Whenever you wish, you may end the discussion.]
A: I wish to draw your attention to two points:
Firstly, in this movement, that is an Islamic movement, a suppressed nation has stood against the oppressors who intend to destroy the people. How did it come that the clerics of the Al-Azhar University agreed with the Shah and disagreed with the people? What should be done about those clerics who stand against the oppressed people and agree with the cruelty and oppression?
Secondly, I want to ask you- as a capable writer- to go to Iran if possible and observe the situation. Observe the oppressions and the injustices. I want you to choose some people from all the strata in the society from the politicians to bazaar traders, to villagers, military personnel- particularly the younger and low-brass officers- to the government employees, or whoever you want, and ask them about the situation in the past, about the reasons for the current developments and the situation at present. And then when you have garnered the necessary information, write a book about Iran- similar to that of your previous visit to Iran- and publish it. Doing such a thing in your part will in fact show your support for the Iranian nation and will be indeed the discharging of your duty.
Q: [I met the Shah in 1975. I had a long, caustic and biting discussion with him. When I told him that I had a large number of questions to ask him, he also said the same thing. He knew that I have been a friend of `Abdul-Nasir and asked me a lot of questions about him. When the Shah was speaking about himself, the Shah-People Revolution and also about his dreams, I asked him: Why are you always faced with the disagreement of the youth wherever you go and why are you always confronted with oppositions and objections against the Shah's regime? The youth are the future of the country; why are they against you? I do not need to go to Iran to know what is going on in Iran; I am well aware of the situation. I was a close friend of `Abdul-Nasir and we were against the Shah's regime. But as for the clerics; this is the first movement in Islam that has openly stood against the regime. What has made this movement so important is the very fact that this is the first anti-governmental movement. The clerics of Al-Azhar University are unfortunately obedient to the government orders; it has always been so, not only since the Ottoman Empire, but from the beginning of the caliphate. The government controls everything. For this very reason some of the communists attack us and say that religion has been an instrument in the hands of government to reach its objectives.]
A: One of the characteristics of the Shi`i religion is that it has never been obedient to the governments, has always stood against the governments and has sacrificed its leaders. Such a religion can be the representative of Islam, can present Islam, and can stand against the doctrines of the communists and show that religion is not the opium of the society and the clerics are not obedient to the government's orders.
Q: [I agree that this movement is a religious movement. What is your plan after the Shah leaves Iran? How is the transition from a purely religious movement to a political, or a religious-political, one, possible?]
A: Our religion is a political religion. Our clerics are aware of politics. We do not lack statesmen; we do have learned Muslim managers in all fields. After the departure of the Shah, a bunch of thieves will leave Iran and a group of honest and skillful statesmen will take their place.
Q: [Here I intend to ask a somehow personal question. Which personality or personalities,- throughout the Islamic or non-Islamic history- except Prophet Muhammad (s) and Imam `Ali (`a) have left the most impression on you? And which books, in addition to the Qur'an, have influenced you?]
A: I cannot answer this question of yours right now. It requires pondering for a while. We have lots of books; in the field of philosophy, we may mention Mulla Sadra's; «2» in the field of tradition, al-Kafi; «3» and in the field of jurisprudence, al-Jawahir. «4» Our Islamic sciences are very profound; we have lots of books. I cannot count them for you.