Interviewer: The reporter of the American Time magazine «1»
In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful
Question: You have identified the deposed king of Iran as an international criminal, but you have not yet specified his crimes. Could you tell us specifically about the rounds of crime he might have committed?
Answer: The the Shah's crimes are countless and even making a summary of them is rather difficult. We suffice with saying that only during the past two years while people had risen to demolish the Pahlavi regime and to establish the Islamic Republic of Iran, we have had 60,000 killed and hundreds disabled. His crimes since 1342 (1963) onward has been the history of mankind. During his reign, the Shah made us economically dependant on foreign countries, especially on the United States. He made Iran go bankrupt. In order to continue with his kingdom, he provided the United States and the Soviet Union with free oil and gas. Our industry is a dependant one. He made Iran into an assembler country. He had demolished our agriculture. He has submitted to the west our underground resources and our over ground able minded human resources; i. e., our youths. In other words, he has caused brain drain of the youth caused their recruitment and absorbed by foreign countries. The King of Iran has aligned Iran with United States in that he had made Iran as a supporter of the tyrants and aggressors. This is clearly shown by the Iran's positions in the international arena. On the surface, the Shah might have taken an anti-American stance due to his fear of the Iranian nation, but behind the scene he has been a defender of the American policy. Examples are his position with respect to the Palestinians and Israeli issue. At some circles, the Shah used to pretend to defend the Palestinian cause, but he sold our oil to the enemy of Islam and Muslims, the usurper Israel. He used to support Israel militarily. In doing so, he acted willingly. The Shah made us reliant militarily on the United States and getting rid of this reliance seems a difficult task, indeed. He used to supply the Americans with free oil and then he helped them establish their military strongholds here in Iran. Above all, he was resolute to annihilate Islam and Muslims all together. A complete account of his crimes makes a thick book. Culturally, he made our youths inclined towards the west. He brainwashed our youths by the western culture. To neutralize this poisonous brain washing is a great deed, however.
Q: To what degree are you qualified to judge him? You are a human being. How could you be certain that judgment will be honest and based on Islamic code? Has God ever spoken to you or has He ever revealed to you to provide you with some advice?
A: The items of the Shah's crimes I have so far referred to are the results of the judgments of all Iranian nations. I have repeatedly announced that I am the speaker of the sentiments of all Iranians.
Q: Are you still sticking to your beliefs and ideas? Now that the whole world has condemned the act of hostage taking?
A: This condemnation does not stem from the will and determination of the nations. Rather, they are influenced by the super powers' indoctrinations and propaganda. Now we are resolute to show to the whole world that we can defeat these superpowers with our faith. We are confronting the United States with all our might and we do not fear it.
Q: You complain that the west has imposed its values on the Iranians. Then, why are you trying to impose the Islamic values and Islamic justice over the western representatives?
A: We shall never try to impose our Islamic values on the west, neither over the west nor over the east. Islam is never imposed on anybody. Islam is against the imposition of its ideology over others. Islam is not a school of imposition. Islam has spread freedom in all its dimensions. We only present Islam to the world. It is up to the world's people to adopt it or not.
Q: Have you realized that Carter is not legally authorized to deliver the Shah to Iran or to a third country even if he personally wishes to do so? Do you expect Carter to go against the American Constitution? Is this not in contradiction with your ethical principles or the Islamic code?
A: Could the United States and its president legally threaten Iran by tanks and machine guns but it could not" legally" surrender the Shah to Iran? What kind of rules and regulations prevail in the United States that authorize the President of that country to exploit other nations, but fail to" legally" surrender a criminal who has been the agent for numerous crimes? Is this really termed" law?"
Q: You emphatically use the espionage den for American embassy in Iran, but there is no evidence for such an accusation. Are you aware that each diplomat is supposed to collect data concerning the country in which he works and do you know that this is considered legal? Don't you know that a diplomat is easily expelled from the country if there are pieces of evidence confirming his or her spying instead of being harassed by the host country?
A: Collecting data is different from engaging in spying. There is evidence that these diplomats had special plans for each region of Iran. They had plans, for instance, for the closure of our schools. They had plans, as well, for the armed conflicts to be brought about in different areas of the country. Is this merely collecting data? This will be known and revealed by our Muslim students in future.
Q: If you were against the American activities in Iran, why didn't you close down the embassy? Or why didn't you expel some of its personnel?
A: Closing down or not closing down depends on the government. I do not interfere with this kind of affairs.
Q: Do you agree with America's natural endeavor to normalize its relations with the new government in Iran and are you content with America's sales of spare parts to the Iranian army and with America's attempt to remove the hurdles on the way of the Iranian trade problems acceptable to the Iranian authorities?
A: It is clear that we will not accept any relation which is against the interests of our nation, but trade relations and other kinds of relation, if not against the interests of our nation, are accepted by me and the convention of such contracts will be done by the government.
Q: Are you aware to what degree you have isolated Iran? All your aligned countries, even the Islamic countries have condemned hostage taking. You have expelled the United States from Iran, but who will release you from the pressure by the Soviet Union?
A: We expelled the United States so that we could establish an Islamic government. America's expulsion does not mean that we would substitute the Russians for them. The slogans our people utter confirm this fact. In all their campaigns, our people shouted" Neither East nor West, but the Islamic Republic." If one day, the Soviet Union exerted pressure on us, we would deal with them in the way we dealt with the Americans. We shall rely on God and on the people's everlasting power.
Q: You have to accept the fact that the United States would never deliver the Shah. If you doubt this, simply you have not understood the United States, but the King might leave the United States when his visa expires. In that case, will you release the hostages? If the United Nations accepts to deal with your complaints, should it also try the entire world's dictator?
A: Just the reverse! We have understood the United States perfectly well and we know how to stand firm against it and defend our dignity. We have understood the United States and have resisted against its greatest injustice, which is sheltering the Shah. We are resolute to defeat the United States. We will defeat the Unites States in the region. If the Shah leaves the United States nothing will be solved. Then we will, God willing, try the United States. An international body should see to it so that the United States is convinced to return the Shah to Iran. Such a body should confiscate all the Shah's assets, which he has stolen from this country, and return them to Iran. An international body should try all dictators. This is natural. We will reject injustice and we will not tolerate cruelty.
Q: Why won't you accept to be arbitrators? Accepting mediators is a rational act since there are different opinions in the world. You have already rejected the arbitration of Ramzi Clark, «2» Waldheim, «3» and the Palestinian Liberation Organization. «4»
A: I did not intend to show disrespect towards these people. I have been defending Palestine against Israel for the last twenty years. I used to mention Israel's danger when there was no mention of Israel or Palestine in Iran. We will support the rightful struggles of Palestinians against the Israeli occupation, but there is one significant point here, and that is, I would like the world to know that nobody should arbitrate between an oppressed one and an oppressor. Under such conditions, one has to defend the oppressed and attack the oppressor. Arbitration between an aggressor and the oppressed one is a great injustice. For this reason, I will not accept any arbitration. A logic, which defends the tyrant against the oppressed one, is not logic. If you consider the dispatch of your delegates as arbitrators between the Palestinian and Israel as a logical act, we will not consider it logical at all. We will only consider defending Palestine as a logical act. Anybody in the world who will defend our rights will be confirmed by us. Of course, such a person should not be a cruel one. It is because we will never confirm a tyrant, even if he works in our interest. We believe in some principles and we will stick to them forever.
Q: You have been living a very isolated life. You have not studied modern economics and international relations. You have been majoring in divine studies only. You have not been involved in Politics, nor in the issues of social life. Don't you think there might be some factors involved in this equation, which you may not have understood?
A: We have broken the universal equations and the social and political criteria through which universal problems were measured. We have established a framework in which justice is to be defended and tyranny should be attacked. We shall defend any just person and will struggle against any cruel one. We have founded such a construction. We hope there will be some people who will re-construct the United Nations, the Security Council and other international bodies on the same foundation, not based on the influences, of the capitalists and power-mongers who misuse their powers. Yes, according to your criteria, I know nothing, and I prefer to remain ignorant.
Q: Have you ever made a mistake?
A: Everybody makes mistakes except for the Great Prophet (s) and the Infallible ones (`a).
Q: As a politician, honestly answer: hasn't the revolution been defeated? Your economy has not revived; the poor people in the slums in the south of Tehran are still poor. The army cannot defend itself if it is attacked from outside. There are no usual or political activities in Iran and the political parties are in chaos.
A: What you say might be true, but the Revolution is not defeated. The foundation of the Revolution has become stronger. This is a proven fact that our people have got accustomed to the Revolution. All of us are revolutionaries. They desire martyrdom. I am serious. We can easily defend ourselves against the United States. It may destroy us, not our Revolution. For this reason, I say we are victorious. Pay attention to our revolutionary slogans. They say" The aircraft carrier is not effective anymore, and Carter is ignorant of the logic of martyrdom." What does America know about martyrdom? Therefore, we shall resolve all of our problems, but the chaotic state of affairs are rooted in the past fifty years. It will take at least twenty years until conditions become normal, but our people have not risen to receive any benefit. What they have been saying is the slogan," independence, freedom and the Islamic Republic." The Islamic Republic now is in existence. For a complete independence, we should cut the hands of the East and the West from our internal affairs. This we are resolute to carry out.
Q: Have you not somewhat lost the control of affairs. In the view of some the occupation of the embassy has occurred without your consent and that of the Revolutionary Council. Have those students taken hostages without your consent? Do you have any control over this group?
A: Your lack of knowledge about the Iranian people has caused you make terrible errors. Due to the injustices, which our nation has been subject to by the Americans, they are revengeful of the United States, and we lead people toward independence and release from the American tyranny. For this reason, they have occupied the American den of espionage. That is an espionage center and people rightfully ask;" what do we want America for?"
Q: Is this fair for you to play two roles at the same time? At times you issue orders to people to carry out certain tasks, but when you want to shun responsibilities, you will answer you are unable to do anything; you would say," It is up to the people or the students to decide."
A: It is a fact that I, as Khomeini, give out my opinions, but you should be aware of the fact that hostages are in the hands of the Muslim University Students.